Keep an eye on this story, it is an important event since I believe it is the first time a airsoft replica that was already sold here was suddenly seized by ATF and destroyed. I would like updates if anyone finds them.
The store in question is currently filing a Freedom of information Act and I know I am looking forward to reading it.
I call upon the ATF to PROVE that they can be converted to fire more than once and not at the cost of the shooters hands and face. I want the ATF testing results. I'll wait.
At SHOT Show we were looking at all of the airsoft offerings with an eye towards tactical training purposes. We talked to the guys at KWA extensively concerning some of their higher-end guns which were very, very realistic. Literally when breaking them down the resemblance to an actual AR rifle was incredible right down to the bolt and recoil system. That said, they assured us that they had to have their lowers approved by the ATF and that while everything looked very similar, it would be nearly impossible to alter the lowers to accept an AR upper and that the materials certainly were not rated to withstand live fire stresses. The magazine well is too small, the holes are in the wrong location, and the take pin holes are not even close (we all know that even a few hundredths of an inch is a HUGE difference for something like this.)
With the amount of work involved it would be FAR easier and FAR cheaper (the high-end airsofts can run $600+) to buy an 80% receiver and simply do the work if that were one’s inclination…and anybody with the skills and knowledge to do the work would KNOW that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Buist
““Readily restor[able]“. That’s the standard it has to meet. IIRC in the ’80s that meant it could be done in a machine shop in eight hours or less. It’s on the vague side, but the government’s position has long been very generous in terms of what “readily” means.”
It’s awful generous to the government, which I presume is what you meant. You can turn a raw billet of aluminum into a proper receiver in less than 8 hours in the right machine shop and still have plenty of time to drop in the fire control parts and slap an upper on it.
It’d be nice if they’d publish some testing procedures but that’s never going to happen because the gun owning community would find a hole in it practically overnight.
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3rd platoon Highlanders!, machine gunner Do NOT anger the forum Illuminati, please search first Team STAG
Quote P7hk9 "Just do it as a TEAM and not as Master Chief."
In the youtube video from the news, it says they tested they could be made into real steel and they could. I would love to see that proof. ATF is Bull Crap.
All we have now is speculation. The media isn't known for their fact-checking anymore. I'll wait for the FoI paperwork before I take to the streets and overturn cars.
You'll notice that in the news report, these weren't marui-style M4s (with a gearbox) that were seized. From the posted video, it looked like the gun in question was the WE CQBr gas blow-back.
Does anyone have any experience with these guns? Does it function in a similar manner to the Inokatsu one that was denied entry into the US? If the lower can be modded and attached to a real-steel upper and will accept a mil-spec buffer tube and stock, then the ATF was right to seize them. If you can take the trigger group out and install it in a real M4 lower...that's still a machine gun.
That Inokatsu M4 operated like a real M4, at least the trigger group did. Of course that's not going to be permitted. At least it was prevented from entering the country before businesses purchased them.
Guys I didn't post this to allow you all to rage over how fair the ATF is or isn't. It is important news that guns that have been sold here (US) many times are now suddenly being said to be easily modified into full assault rifles.
If you guys are going to post stupid stuff like 'Oh my God! THEY ARE SO STUPID LETS GET THEM" I will trash this thread in a heartbeat.
Keep it smart and on point or to the trash it goes
Now we at Airsoft Outlet Northwest, being the rational individuals we are, went out and had a gunsmith check the true compatibility of these replicas and found the following information:
The WE TTI M4's lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15's operation
The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4
The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt
The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work
The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn't operable with the WE TTI lower.
I totally agree with Jeep...airsoft guns...no mater the make or model is not built to withstand the stresses of a real firearm. I think the ATF and the media that supports them are all full of crap.
__________________
ChAoS
Killing the enemy with superior firepower, profanity, and crude humor.
(I've got COD4 and Far Cry 2 and my XBL name is ChAoS1084. just in case anyone wanted to play)
The WE TTI M4's lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15's operation
Well no ****, Sherlock. Only a complete retard would try to modify the upper receiver to fire a real bullet.
The issue here is the lower. By their own admission, an AR upper fits on the WE lower. Simply modding the hammer to strike the AR's firing pin and attaching a real recoil buffer tube assembly gets you a machine gun. Anyone with an armorer's wrench could do this rather quickly.
Say goodbye to the WE in question. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Think of the children! THE CHILDREN!!!!!11ONE!1
The rest of our airsoft guns are safe, as they do not function in the same way.
Even if they could make it work, would the pot metal on the back of the lower receiver be able to hold up to the force exerted by the buffer tube when the gun fires? I've seen metal lowers blow apart just from getting dropped. I thought the whole point of building them out of craptastic pot metal was so that the gun couldn't be converted.
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P7hk9: I never thought I'd see the day where airsofters were more concerned about what they can wear than playing at a MOUT facility!
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low observability, high firepower, high drag, low speed
3rd platoon Highlanders!, machine gunner Do NOT anger the forum Illuminati, please search first Team STAG
Quote P7hk9 "Just do it as a TEAM and not as Master Chief."
I feel for the guy, but i am not swayed by his appeals to emotion. In fact, the entire article is a perfect example of the effective use of logical fallacy in argument.
He seems to be hung up on making an airsoft gun fire live ammo rather than using the airsoft lower to make an illegal machinegun. As much as I hate to be on the side of the government, I'm on the side of the government in this case.
Its a real shame in the logic here. Ban GBB AR15's because with a ridicules amount of work, you can mod them. Even though the lowers could never fire more then one shot because it would explode from the pressure. On the other hand, the ability to mod a real AR15 to fire in full auto, with nothing more then a file, means absolutely nothing.
What this really boils down to is the anti-gun activist over stepping the bounds into BS propaganda AGAIN!... Remember that British anti-replica commercial that showed a little kid shooting and killing his friends. All because replica firearms and be EASILY modded to fire real bullets.
Everyone needs to realize that the anti-gun activists are all butt hurt about Obama not rewriting the '94 Assault Weapons Ban that expired not to long ago. The new ban which as shot down would have illegalized all military based rifles that are not bolt action as well as a large portion of pistols and shotguns. The Obama admin had a stern talking to buy many pro weapons groups, and reconsidered the bill. Because of all this the anti-gun activist are striking out at ANYTHING that looks even remotely like a firearm and trying to get any media recognition.
If anyone here is at all concerned about their 2nd Amendment rights or real firearms then they hang out in forums on the subject. You can read over and over again about the massive amount of stupidity and ignorance that your local law enforcement personnel have on the subject of anything weapon related. You would be surprised as to how many people still dont know about the AWB of 94 ending.
I'm not the most knowledgeable on any of these subjects or anything(I'm not a lawyer or anything). I just think it's silly to confiscate something because it can be turned into a weapon. Last I checked, damn near anything could be. If they wanted to take them because they lacked an orange tip, I think it would be overkill, as a can of orange spray paint can fix that, I mean, maybe fine them or something, give 'em a slap on the wrist. I dunno, I guess I feel the laws are far too strict. But then again I'm not on any boards passing laws, all I can do is vote for a package deal and hope a few things work out.
I understand that they could theoretically be modified to be turned into machine guns. But as they haven't, I don't think any laws have actually been broken. It's like taking any flammable product being shipped in and saying it was going to be used for arson.
The Gov: "This toy gun could be turned into a real gun."
Dude: "OK. Well...was it?"
The Gov: "No...but someone could have."
Dude: "Uh huh...so, you want to take my **** because someone could do bad things with it?"
The Gov: "Yep"
Dude: "Well on that note, here's my coffee mug, it has some sharp edges I think; my spoon, pretty dangerous right there; and my keys to my car, not only could someone drive it, but they could stab someone with this. Oh and I almost forgot, here is my wife's hairspray."
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"Inside all old men is a young boy wondering what happened."
All we have now is speculation. The media isn't known for their fact-checking anymore. I'll wait for the FoI paperwork before I take to the streets and overturn cars.
You'll notice that in the news report, these weren't marui-style M4s (with a gearbox) that were seized. From the posted video, it looked like the gun in question was the WE CQBr gas blow-back.
Does anyone have any experience with these guns? Does it function in a similar manner to the Inokatsu one that was denied entry into the US? If the lower can be modded and attached to a real-steel upper and will accept a mil-spec buffer tube and stock, then the ATF was right to seize them. If you can take the trigger group out and install it in a real M4 lower...that's still a machine gun.
That Inokatsu M4 operated like a real M4, at least the trigger group did. Of course that's not going to be permitted. At least it was prevented from entering the country before businesses purchased them.
When did they deny the Inokatsu M4 from the US? I have purchased and recieved my GBB a week ago.
RAGE! This is so incredibly aggravating to read and hear about. I too fear for the sport of airsoft if people can take action on these wild claims and get away with it! Especially while looking like a hero to the local news.
This is a little off topic, but if you watch the video at 48 seconds, their store sign advertisement says, "Airsoft Brings Video Gaming to Life." I guess they are marketing to lollers. It's kind of aggravating too seeing as how newbies that go to pick up their first gun there will go into airsoft with the idea of "Oh yeah! That airsoft store is telling me this is going to be just like my video games! Time fur Mast3r Chief H3aDsh00tz Pw3nAGe!"
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"When eliminated, at your discretion, you may feign real death for added realism. To do this, simply lie down and stop moving." 21st Airsoft Marine Division
why would you go through all the trouble to even try to convert the airsoft gun to a real gun....I mean can't you just order the indivdual parts online with out raising an eyebrow and then assemble the real thing....(I'm not saying go build your own gun) but seriously I just think the government likes to screw with people because they don't have anything better to do than spend our tax dollars.
I'm sorry if that seems shrewd I'm just not a big fan of the government being so uptight and threating our beloved sport.
__________________
ChAoS
Killing the enemy with superior firepower, profanity, and crude humor.
(I've got COD4 and Far Cry 2 and my XBL name is ChAoS1084. just in case anyone wanted to play)
I think a lot of you may have a bit of "Chicken Little Syndrome". The reason these were seized was because the lowers of the GBB's are *close enough* to real dimensions that you could *in theory* put a live upper on it and fire a round. There was a youtube promotional video not too long ago of one of the GBBR companies putting a real steal mag into the magwell of on of their lowers.
Everyone is sitting here saying "the government is bad because they are banning toys!!!" The fact is, some of those GBBR lowers are not toys in the least. Whilst they are cool, you have to remember the larger markets of airsoft, IE other countries with stringent gun laws. To some people, a GBBR is as close as they will ever get to a real firearm, thus why no other country is having the problems the US is having with importing these items. You all want to sit and say "no one would ever...", fact is, someone, at some point, will fire a round off from a GBBR lower.
Also, bonus_puer1, please try to refrain from making sweeping generalizations about local Law Enforcement. Have you ever sat down and read through the Pennsylvania Weapons and Firearms Acts/Laws? It does get convoluted to those that are not "gun guys". By your post, I would be one of those people that is stupid/ignorant on the "subject of anything weapon related"
I am neither pro, nor anti-government. I am just saying that some of you guys need to take a step back and realize this is not a "sky is falling" situation.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Last edited by Light-Fighter : 03-08-2010 at 02:12 PM.
I'm not all anti gov. I just wish they were not so uptight and maybe did some research. but I can see their point. I don't know I'm just sharing my concern...I mean first its this....whats next? If they ban airsoft what will I have to do with my time an money then. I'll need to get a new hobby..like building ships in a bottle...Do you think its something that we really should be worried about?
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ChAoS
Killing the enemy with superior firepower, profanity, and crude humor.
(I've got COD4 and Far Cry 2 and my XBL name is ChAoS1084. just in case anyone wanted to play)
I think people are worrying about it because people just always need something to fear. Paintball went through the same thing years ago. People need to heed stories like this, rather then try to use it as a call to arms so to speak.
You know what will get airsoft banned? Stupid people, doing stupid things with these replicas, but instead of going after the individual stupid, people always try to vilify the government or law enforcement in these cases.
Airsoft, and airsoft replicas require a certain level of common sense and maturity, its just too bad common sense isn't so common anymore and maturity is just a word in the dictionary.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
why would you go through all the trouble to even try to convert the airsoft gun to a real gun....I mean can't you just order the indivdual parts online with out raising an eyebrow and then assemble the real thing.
You can buy lots of gun parts online, but only the lower receiver is considered the 'gun' and is serial numbered. You need to buy that from a gun dealer or FFL. Appropriate documentation is kept for the BATF if you legally buy a lower receiver.
You can buy lots of gun parts online, but only the lower receiver is considered the 'gun' and is serial numbered. You need to buy that from a gun dealer or FFL. Appropriate documentation is kept for the BATF if you legally buy a lower receiver.
And there are many people that are prohibited from buying firearms that really really want a full-auto lower. Why are they prohibited people? Because they were convicted of a crime. Crap like this isn't about keeping cool replicas out of our hands, it's about keeping things like this out of the hands of D-bag criminals.
/I am generally anti-government, just not in this case.
//I've also read PA's UFA
///
I think people are worrying about it because people just always need something to fear. Paintball went through the same thing years ago. People need to heed stories like this, rather then try to use it as a call to arms so to speak.
That was kinda why I put this hear, Not to have all of you yell at scream about 'this is stupid!' or not, JUST to keep an ear to the ground. This is a semi important but not the end of the world by any means, adjusting my original post to reflect that better.
Kind of off topic of the whole rage thing but I find it funny how the ATF agent (or whatever you would like to call them) put the magazine in backwards at 1:16.
Because a 6mm Brass tube can definitely withstand 20,000+psi of pressure. *sigh*. Also, it seems that you would have to buy the upper receiver of an Ar15, and then replace the lower receiver of the airsoft gun with a real receiver to make it work. Meaning, buy an ar15.
The issue here is that the airsoft lower fits with an real steel upper. From what I understand, as firearms are concerned, the lower receiver is what is considered to be the actual "firearm" because it has the ability to fire the round. While they still require modification, the ATF is stating that it is possible to make it work due to the compatibility of the two parts and the fact that the GBB uses a "hammer" that could strike a firing pin, if I understood everything correctly.
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OP:FS Independent Army, B Company 4th Platoon, Rifleman/Sniper
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You are correct fightingirish. The only part of the weapon the ATF is worried about is the lower, as that is the only thing that has a serial number and is registered/regulated. You can own as many different uppers as you want, but the only thing that will ever be registered is the lower (not getting int PA short barrel riffle laws here)
So, to sum it all up: Airsoft lower that can be mounted to a real upper = firearm = illegal, as the airsoft gun is not a registered weapon, which is what the ATF is worried about. It doesnt matter if you only put one live round through the concoction, of 1000 live rounds through the concoction. One live bullet equals firearm.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Also, bonus_puer1, please try to refrain from making sweeping generalizations about local Law Enforcement. Have you ever sat down and read through the Pennsylvania Weapons and Firearms Acts/Laws? It does get convoluted to those that are not "gun guys". By your post, I would be one of those people that is stupid/ignorant on the "subject of anything weapon related"
I would like to apologize to any Law enforcement personnel here. I should have said that better. By 'local' I meant the people in the area you live, not the agency(city, county,or state(there are 50 of them)). Also for the few knowledgeable men and women who frequent the forums, there are hundreds more who don't. Most importantly not everyone has the ultimate super power that is understanding. I lived in Delaware, now deployed, and can say that the city cops are best followed by county. But, the state boys are corrupt as hell, that said not all the state cops are bad guys.
Again, I apologize for offending the good guys and gals.
Correct me if i'm wrong here, but the fact still remains that NO ONE HAS EVER DONE THIS.
People aren't worried because "they need something to fear" Its because they see the ramifications of stunts like this in the long run, on our society. Perfect example the patriot act. Its no longer the burden of the state to prove guilt, but the individual's obligation to prove innocence.
Look at the history of the ATF and you can clearly see they've established that they can go wherever they please, take whatever they please, even KILL whoever they please, with no accountability whatsoever. Stalin's NKVD would be envious.
As a citizen of a "free" country, how can you not see a huge problem with conjuring up crimes out of thin air, before they happen, because theoretically, they could/might happen?
Correct me if i'm wrong here, but the fact still remains that NO ONE HAS EVER DONE THIS.
People aren't worried because "they need something to fear" Its because they see the ramifications of stunts like this in the long run, on our society. Perfect example the patriot act. Its no longer the burden of the state to prove guilt, but the individual's obligation to prove innocence.
Look at the history of the ATF and you can clearly see they've established that they can go wherever they please, take whatever they please, even KILL whoever they please, with no accountability whatsoever. Stalin's NKVD would be envious.
As a citizen of a "free" country, how can you not see a huge problem with conjuring up crimes out of thin air, before they happen, because theoretically, they could/might happen?
Can I assume you have a citation to back up your first statement?
How was a crime "conjured out of thin air"? I'm pretty sure the statute was there long before this latest seizure. While I agree that there is no criminal intent present with the manufacture or importation of these airsoft guns, the fact remains that they can be used to turn a standard rifle into an illegal machinegun.
Don't get me wrong, I'm right there with you saying the government should stay out of the weapons regulation business. Personally, I'd like to go back to the way it was when anyone could buy a Thompson in a hardware store. Also, I'd like to carry my guns without a "permission slip" from the state. Realistically, I just don't see either happening.
If you want to do something about it, I invite you to come with me to Harrisburg on April 27th for the 2nd Amendment rally. You will get the opportunity to tell your legislators, in person, how you feel. http://www.2arally.com/
I could very well be wrong about that. I can't say with any certainty that no one, somewhere in the world modified an airsoft gun to fire a real bullet. But if someone was caught with one, or committed a crime with one, i figure there would be report of at least one instance somewhere to be found on the net. I sure as heck can't find one.
Is there even any actual proof that these can indeed be used to make a functioning automatic weapon? A report from a reputable source? A demonstration? All i've seen is speculation and theories and unsubstantiated claims. An unsubstantiated claim is no justification for the seizure and destruction of someone's property. At least i thought it wasn't, not in our country anyway. Words like possibly, maybe, might, could, have no place in a legitimate case against someone. Where is the PROOF? But then again, since when is the ATF legitimate with anything? Their specialty seems to be witch-hunting.
I think the ATF just needs to harass the commoners to justify their overinflated budget and their pointless existence. "Look, we stole a bunch of toys that maybe possibly could be turned into real guns, but no one knows for sure. We're keeping the public safe!" Dumb ass bureaucrats..
Anyway, i'll definately look into the 27th. I think thats something i'd like to see.
You trust what you're reading in some opinionated blog?
... good luck with that.
/let it die.
__________________ "But you say that you want to go back to this place, Earth, a place that you tell me has so much disease and suffering!?"
"Well, you guys don't have chocolate..."
I'd actually like to see where this goes. I'm very curious of the outcome as this case could be a very important event in the future of airsoft, specifically, GBB rifles.
And when that information comes up, great! Post it! Does that mean continue the idle discussion with no good information coming in? You tell me.
__________________ "But you say that you want to go back to this place, Earth, a place that you tell me has so much disease and suffering!?"
"Well, you guys don't have chocolate..."
So, Fox News has a rather prominant article on the conversion of Airsoft replicas into functioning AR-15 guns. I don't know enough about how either work to have my own opinion, but this relates to airsoft, and is in the news, so I figured I'd post it and let those of you much more knowledgeable than myself discuss it. Article is found here
But guys, these could end up in the hands of evil terrorist drug-runner gangsters who hate America! What if one of the had access to compatible ammo, magazines, a functioning upper reciever/barrel, a strengthened lower reciever, large amounts of structural engineering and gunsmithing know-how, and 8-12 hours in a machine shop?! On a more relevant, on-topic note, have none of the people making the danger claims spent any time or effort researching Airsoft internals? Even in a GBBR, few of the basic operating principles (to my knowledge) are really compatible with the real AR-15 platform. Please God, correct me if I'm wrong as the AR is not a platform I'm perfectly solid on.
OH MY GOD! All you have to do is replace every part on the airsoft gun with the parts from an AR15!
Will nobody think of the children! THE CHILDREN!
/Fox News couldn't report their way out of a paper bag.
And that magical illegal gun might make it through a full magazine without blowing up in your face. Right, because this is an easier way to get an AR than you friendly neigbourhood black market gun dealer.
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\"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.\"
It's great to know that the ATF, who obviously does a great job (sarcasm), gets *HURR I CAN'T SPELL SIMPLE WORDS!* a nice sized salary for all of their hard work. I mean, who the hell did they think they were fooling when they said an airsoft gun could be converted into a real one?
RAGE! This is so incredibly aggravating to read and hear about. I too fear for the sport of airsoft if people can take action on these wild claims and get away with it!
Especially while looking like a hero to the local news. 
