I learned the hard way yesterday not to mess around with airsoft outside of fields. I was outside my house yesterday, on my porch, showing a springer pistol with a huge orange tip to my friends. A cop pulls up, jumps out, pointing his gun and yelling to drop my gun, I oblige fully. There were about 5 of my friends of mine out there with me, all yelling it was a fake airsoft gun with an orange tip. He tells everyone to get down on the ground, we all do. Backup arrives, comes up on my porch where we are and cuffs me. They then search everyone, a buddy of mine had brass knuckles on him; he is then handcuffed. I was then forced to the squad car and taken to the station, my buddy arrived in a separate squad car. After about 30 minutes of waiting in a cell, they let my buddy go with a $25 fine. After about an hour later, and a chewing out about how I was almost shot, I get booked and let go. The officer said it was a felony for what I was doing, which is pretty ridiculous but from what I've seen happen with airsoft guns, understandable. He then said I'll get something in the mail about a misdemeanor. I can't even make sense of this situation, being in lockup for 2 hours and being booked for having an airsoft gun that wasn't even loaded has left me pretty distraught. I don't know much about laws with airsoft besides you can't sell it without the orange tip :P, so I thought maybe you guys can shed some light on the situation.
I'm sorry, but what did you expect? We post news stories of people doing stupid stuff with airsoft all the time. This crap is unfortunately too common.
You were sitting on your porch with what looked like a real gun. The orange tip doesn't mean anything. If you look like you have a gun, then the police will treat you like you have a gun. They don't screw around with armed people in public. What were you charged with?
You did something stupid and got in trouble. Fortunately, nobody got hurt and you are getting off light. I do appreciate you posting about it here, though. Perhaps your experience can serve as a warning to others.
Chances are one of your neighbors called the police. I'm going to take a guess and say that you had been charged with brandishing a weapon in a public setting?
As for the orange tip, that means nothing. The only law is that an airsoft replica must be sold with an orange tip, aside from that, you can take it off, leave it on, whatever you decide. Gang members have been known to paint the tip of real firearms orange in order to confuse LEO's.
To echo what Lou said, although it sucks for you we all have to treat airsoft guns as though they are real firearms I dont know anybody that owns a real firearm that would just sit on their front porch looking at their guns.
Its stuff like this that is going to get airsoft banned.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
I expected to not be storm-trooper'd. It's not like I was running around not on my property shooting randomly. I walked out onto my porch for maybe 2 minutes, to show a couple friends a new airsoft gun, it wasn't even loaded. I know all too well not to go places and use it outside of a field, but just to have it in sight is pretty ridiculous. The fact that 5 people were yelling it was a fake airsoft gun should have stopped the situation to begin with. Guess it goes to show. I'm not sure what I've been charged with, I asked and they didn't give me a straight answer.
That is a very ignorant thing to say. A police officer was murdered in cold blood not a day before in Philly and you think you had been "storm trooper'd" because a police officer responded to a call of you and your friends doing something stupid? Guess what, these replica's are not toys. They are not something you just openly walk around the outside of your house with. They are replica firearms and need to be treated as though they are real. I have not one ounce of sympathy for you or your friends. You did something stupid and now must face the ramifications. Your all lucky you didnt get tazed or maced. It doesnt matter if you had all been shouting it was fake. To the cop all that was is backround noise. His first priority was to de-escalate the situation and have all suspects comply with a lawful order while waiting for backup.
You are not the victim of the big bad storm trooper police. You did something wrong and had to eat some dirt in the process. The charges against you could have been much, much worse and if you are getting let go on a misdemeanor then just count yourself as lucky and move on.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Last edited by Light-Fighter : 05-05-2008 at 12:10 PM.
First off, he was not responding to a call, he was patrolling. I realized it was dumb to bring it out from the start of this mess. You don't have to come off attacking me, I already have to go to court over this. I was not openly walking around, I was about 2 feet from my door. It was just bad timing and now I gotta pay for it. Thanks for your support.
You want support? For what? Doing something dumb and now having to face the music?
I dont know how many news stories need to be posted on this board for people to realize that these are not toys. No one is attacking you. All I have said in a nutshell is that you got what you deserved. I own plenty of airsoft guns and a couple of real ones and I have never decided that it would be a good idea to bring them to the outside of my house and show off.
You say you had been "2 feet from your door" That is one good cop if he can make out the shape of a weapon from (what I guess) sitting in his patrol car going by. I say kudos to the cop for being that on the ball.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Last edited by Light-Fighter : 05-05-2008 at 12:26 PM.
I have to agree with Light-Fighter. I don't think you will find anyone here that feels sorry for you. You are lucky the cop didn't shoot you.
The bottom line is that a police officer HAS to treat airsoft as a real threat. They look real, therefore they are real. Had this incident happened when you were playing with a bright green Super-Soaker, then your accusations of "storm-trooper" behavior would have been warranted.
You ****ed up and pretty much got what you deserved. In fact, I think you got off light. What matters now is that you learn from your mistake and don't blame the cops.
First off you think yelling 'hey its an airsoft its fake' is supposed to make him go 'oh nevermind as you were' then your not thinking straight. Anyone can yell hey its a fake gun.. doesn't mean it is fake.
Secondly you feel you were stormtroppered? You were let of light, i could see someone in a bad mood tacking on a failure to obey a lawful order. Yes it sucks I'll say that but i don't think it was unwarranted.
Thirdly, it wasn't bad timing, it was bad thought process. This hopefully will help make people more then a little concerned about taking their replicas outside. Why didn't you just show it to them inside? If you were 2 feet from your door then walk the 2 feet show it to them and be done with it.
The only way you would get ANY sympathy from me is if you were inside your house and it saw it through the window and busted down the door and started yelling.
Don't come on here and bitch about why the officer was wrong and you were right, you broke a law and it sucks but now you have to deal with it. You also managed to get off light.
I'm pretty sure in all of my posts I didn't say anything to look for sympathy, except for sarcasm in thanking you for support which doesn't apply to text very well I suppose. I never said it wasn't my fault, I was stating that from my view of the situation, the officer took it out of proportion after he found out it was an airsoft gun. No one reported it, there were 5 other people out there besides myself saying the gun wasn't real, and he decides to arrest a few people and ignore some of my rights (thus why I used the term storm trooper). I also have many airsoft guns and a few real ones, never take the real ones out except to go to the range so I guess I'll do the same with the airsoft ones. The fact that I wasn't shot is good enough for me, I just came here for others opinions and I thank you all for it (no sarcasm here :)).
Maybe he is just tired of having to play guess if its real games because people decide to just walk around with their airsoft replicas he didn't blow anything out of proportion
The officer did not take it out of proportion. You brandished a firearm in public (officer see's it then its plane sight) No matter if its real or fake, the officer must treat the replica as it is real.
Just out of curiosity, what rights of yours had been ignored/overlooked? Just from what you have written:
Ordered to the ground- lawful order
Officers come onto porch- lawful act to search/secure area/ detain suspects
You/friends are cuffed- lawful detainment of suspects.
Put into squad car- lawful transport of detained suspect
Friend is booked and let go- he is only being charged for the brass knuckles, not brandishing a weapon
Kept in holding- You can be held for 24hrs(thanks LJ)in holding before being charged with a crime
Charged and released- No issues.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Last edited by Light-Fighter : 05-05-2008 at 01:39 PM.
Maybe before you start saying that you had been "storm trooper'd" and the officer blew the situation out of proportion or that your rights violated, maybe read this: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...8-1529035.html
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Maybe before you start saying that you had been "storm trooper'd" and the officer blew the situation out of proportion or that your rights violated, maybe read this: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...8-1529035.html
that poor guy.....back to the topic, you cannot brandish a firearm in the public, even it is on your property.
No offence but like said above I think you got off easey! You could have easly been tasered or sprayed. And about the you yelled " its a fake gun! ", I have no simpathey, think about it. What if it was a real gun and the officer let his gard down, he would have been killed.
well since this is on topic(and not meaning to jack this thread but) kids in my neighborhood have the spring ones from sportsauthority and other places one of them got charged for having it out in public while a patrol was out. but i wasn't there but it was talked to me from my mom. this happened is before i got my airsoft gun. but you are lucky he didn't shoot you and that kid next to my house.
__________________ [The Code of Conduct of ROK Forces in Vietnam]
1. To the enemy, Be courageous and fearful.
2. To the Vietnamese people, Behave with kindness and warmness.
3. To our allies, show them we are well disciplined and reliable. Vietnam Airsoft Group浪人Team Ronin-MUSTARD JAR!!!!!!!!!!!
Agreed. Just because you said it was fake doesn't mean the officer has to beleive you. People lie all the time. How can he trust you and not all the other people? The officer did the right thing. You are lucky.
__________________
Jesus Christ Timmy!!! Dont float above me while im dying in the abyss!!!!!!
-Dane Cook
If the moon were made of spare ribs, would ya eat em?
if i need to take the guns outside of my house for any reason even just from my house to the car for the games. i personally alert my neighbors, for one my township police commissioner lives 3 houses down so he is the first one to contact so that people wont freak out and call the cops. but that is just me, i rather be safe then sorry
You're gonna want a case there Jager, anything to cover it up so you're not carrying around an exposed weapon. Hell, for months I used a freakin soft guitar case until I found out that gun cases are actually pretty cheap.
Then they should invest in one too. Gene's story is a perfect example, even alerting your neighbors isn't enough, all it takes is for some passer-by to freak out.
Granted, having a township officer live 3 houses down is a benefit, but it's still not fool proof.
In short: Get gun case, keep out of public, don't be moronic (ya got 2 of the 3 down )
Their has to be more to the story. You don't get charged without knowing what you are charged for. In my town it is unlawful to discharge any gun or BB gun this also covered paintball guns (I know).
But I want to know since air guns are not covered or controlled by the BATF what can they charge you with having one out in your yard? Don't forget the right to bare arms says you can carry a gun what you can not do is conceal that firearm.
__________________
"U.S. Marines" 2nd Field Force
JLS fn2000 * JG m733 * WA sv infinity * SA m&p40 * Mad Bull AGX * UTG M4 Commando * M87 SOS
The 2nd Amend. does not count for airsoft, as these are replica's and not real firearms, airsoft is not protected under the 2nd Amend. As for the charges, they will be on his release paperwork. His charges will reflect what misdemeanor he was charged with.
What he can be charged with is:
Brandishing a weapon in public
Trying to pass off a fake weapon as a real weapon
Local ord.'s regarding weapons(IE illegal to discharge a weapon x amount of yards from a school)
Disturbing the peace
Assault (if a passer by saw it and felt threatened)
Failure to comply with a lawful order
Endangering an officer
Endangering the public
Intent to (cause bodily harm/cause havoc)
Criminal mischief
Disorderly conduct
There are more but I cant think of them right now. Also, if you have a CCW permit you can carry real firearms concealed on your persons.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Last edited by Light-Fighter : 05-06-2008 at 12:01 AM.
Causing fear in people (or even the cops) by using fake weaponry is just as "chargeable" as carrying a real weapon.
You can very much be charged by carrying an Airsoft Rifle in public or even your backyard (as we've just read). The ability to own a gun doesn't allow the ability to be threatening/stupid with one.
As far as "not giving him a straight answer", that's probably interpretation. He also believes he was "Storm Trooper'd" and that his "rights were violated". Both of which he hasn't elaborated on.
I would also like to add that about how "his rights were violated", once you break the law, ie. brining an airsoft gun outside, you pretty much give up your rights. I also don't think the officer could give a rat's ass about your rights if you are endangering the public/him anyway.
If the police really, really wanted to, they could have charged you (if you are over 18) with felony weapons charges and could have easily gotten a search warrant for the home. Any replica/real firearms that would be found during the search could be confiscated and destroyed since you had already been charged with a felony.
Also, your friend with the brass knucles could have been charged with felony intent/possession of a deadly weapon (if over 18) as the police could have easily made the arguement that he had no real need for the brass knuckles.
You guys got off real easy.A misdemeanor charge and a court date beats jail time anyday.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
I cannot believe you would say that. Please don't take this the wrong way in that i am defending what he did, but the fact that this idea even enters your mind is very very disturbing to me. I am very aware that any airsoft weapon must be treated as a real weapon, and that proper safety and caution is required when operating one, however threatening a civilian with a loaded weapon should carry an equal responsibility. Unless Gene was displaying the weapon in a obviously threatening manner there is no need to use lethal force, and if there is even a shred of truth in what Gene is saying, and he did comply with the officer, there is absolutely no need to arrest him, as well as his friends for simply possessing a replica weapon on his property (which, if they are to be treated by law enforcement as real weapons, they should fall under the same protection under the second amendment)
/This opinion is not at all based in law, I don't know the individual ordinances of his area, just a general concern for civil rights. I am not condoning every individual walking around a city heavily armed, but the fact that (what I see as) a gross over reaction to someone who intended no harm to anyone else is not only accepted, but encouraged in a "you asked for it" manor, is absolutely horrifying to me.
//I am aware that I will probably catch a lot of flak for this, but please remember that it is just my opinion, and that I am not condoning Genes actions, or in anyway trying to disrespect the men and women of law enforcement. I am just expressing my concern over how much power is placed in the hands of the police and the state as a whole, over individual rights and property.
__________________
Armchair general; electronic gunman; I'll fight you, but I'm not getting up! Foxhound Airsoft
The 2nd Amend. does not count for airsoft, as these are replica's and not real firearms, airsoft is not protected under the 2nd Amend. As for the charges, they will be on his release paperwork. His charges will reflect what misdemeanor he was charged with.
What he can be charged with is:
Brandishing a weapon in public
Trying to pass off a fake weapon as a real weapon
Local ord.'s regarding weapons(IE illegal to discharge a weapon x amount of yards from a school)
Disturbing the peace
Assault (if a passer by saw it and felt threatened)
Failure to comply with a lawful order
Endangering an officer
Endangering the public
Intent to (cause bodily harm/cause havoc)
Criminal mischief
Disorderly conduct
There are more but I cant think of them right now. Also, if you have a CCW permit you can carry real firearms concealed on your persons.
Im sorry for giving the impression I wanted someone to guess what he was charged with. I want to hear from gene not what you think he was/could be charged with.
I say old bean, you said it right their!!! airsoft is not covered in the 2nd amendment. IT IS NOT A WEP. after a officer finds this out their can be no charges for a toy. or i can be charged for a fisher price battery op. gun for 5yr olds that shots plastic balls.!
__________________
"U.S. Marines" 2nd Field Force
JLS fn2000 * JG m733 * WA sv infinity * SA m&p40 * Mad Bull AGX * UTG M4 Commando * M87 SOS
@Bkgray -- You can be charged with Aggravated Assault for a rake. If your presence or actions make someone fearful for their lives, you are breaking the law. If you cannot see how a REPLICA FIREARM would do that, then maybe you should go and talk to a few police officers. If he pointed it at someone, that's a whole different pack of trouble. It's not about whether the gun was fake or not, it's about the effect on public safety. Just like you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, you can't display a REPLICA FIREARM in public.
Quote:
I cannot believe you would say that. Please don't take this the wrong way in that i am defending what he did, but the fact that this idea even enters your mind is very very disturbing to me. I am very aware that any airsoft weapon must be treated as a real weapon, and that proper safety and caution is required when operating one, however threatening a civilian with a loaded weapon should carry an equal responsibility. Unless Gene was displaying the weapon in a obviously threatening manner there is no need to use lethal force, and if there is even a shred of truth in what Gene is saying, and he did comply with the officer, there is absolutely no need to arrest him, as well as his friends for simply possessing a replica weapon on his property (which, if they are to be treated by law enforcement as real weapons, they should fall under the same protection under the second amendment)
/This opinion is not at all based in law, I don't know the individual ordinances of his area, just a general concern for civil rights. I am not condoning every individual walking around a city heavily armed, but the fact that (what I see as) a gross over reaction to someone who intended no harm to anyone else is not only accepted, but encouraged in a "you asked for it" manor, is absolutely horrifying to me.
//I am aware that I will probably catch a lot of flak for this, but please remember that it is just my opinion, and that I am not condoning Genes actions, or in anyway trying to disrespect the men and women of law enforcement. I am just expressing my concern over how much power is placed in the hands of the police and the state as a whole, over individual rights and property.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I stand by what I said. If the police officer (or anyone else for that matter) had felt his life was in danger, he could have shot him. It doesn't matter if the gun turns out to be a toy or not. Should a police officer risk his life and the life of others on the small chance that it might not be a real gun? Had Gene been too scared to immediately drop the gun or had he inadvertently pointed it in the direction of the police, why wouldn't the police officer shoot him?
You also mention Gene's "intent" in your post. How was the police officer supposed to gage his intent? Under what situation would "Man with a gun" in a residential area be blown off by the police? And don't even mention the orange tip because, as has been stated before, real criminals have been painting their tips orange to fool police too.
The bottom line is simple. Airsoft guns LOOK REAL, and they MUST be treated as real weapons. When they aren't, unfortunate things happen. All this talk about "civil rights" and "storm troopers" is just a way to deflect the blame from Gene in this situation. Gene ****ed up and was acting irresponsibly with a replica weapon. HE caused the situation, not the police. If he was acting irresponsibly with a candy bar and the police responded in a similar fashion, then you'd have an argument and I'd be right there with you.
As far as my "You had it coming" attitude, I do feel he had it coming. Look around on this site. Go to the Airsoft in the News section. How many stories do we need to read about people doing stupid **** with airsoft before it sinks in? How many members do we have to have post their stories about encounters with the police before people learn? It CAN happen to you.
Im sorry for giving the impression I wanted someone to guess what he was charged with. I want to hear from gene not what you think he was/could be charged with.
I say old bean, you said it right their!!! airsoft is not covered in the 2nd amendment. IT IS NOT A WEP. after a officer finds this out their can be no charges for a toy. or i can be charged for a fisher price battery op. gun for 5yr olds that shots plastic balls.!
No one is is guessing what he was charged with, that is all what he could have been charged with. You yourself asked "But I want to know since air guns are not covered or controlled by the BATF what can they charge you with having one out in your yard?" I answered that question based on the knowledge I have. And yes, you can and should be charged just as strictly for doing something stupid with an airsoft gun as a real gun.
The fact that airsoft is not covered under the 2nd Amend. only means that you have no protected rights to own an airsoft replica and therefor the owner must be even more careful about what he/she does with it. Airsoft is not a toy by any means and should never, never be treated as such. These are replica weapons and should be treated as though they are just as deadly as their counterparts.
Unless your hypothetical fisher price gun can perform the same functions check and is modeled after a real steel weapon then that is not even an issue. Please dont play dumb.
Grim: The weapon was in plane sight. The officer would have been more than justified in using deadly force had he felt the situation needed it. You say that " there is absolutely no need to arrest him, as well as his friends for simply possessing a replica weapon on his property" If a weapon, real or fake is in plane sight of the public that is brandishing a weapon and that is very, very illegal.
Quote:
a gross over reaction to someone who intended no harm to anyone else is not only accepted, but encouraged in a "you asked for it" manor, is absolutely horrifying to me.
How did the officer overreact? From the story the officer gave lawful orders as until the weapon was inspected he must go on the thought that the weapon is real. Again, airsoft is not a toy.
Quote:
I am just expressing my concern over how much power is placed in the hands of the police and the state as a whole, over individual rights and property.
That is the standard sheeple mentality. Go do a rdie along with a cop and just see how much bull**** they put up with on a day to day basis from people with this mentality.
If people honestly think that airsoft is just toys then maybe its time you look into a new hobby because replica weapons are just as dangerous as their real life counterparts. They are just as deadly and if one is not mature enough to display common sense when handaling them, well then im all for the Social Darwinism that will take place.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
I cannot believe you would say that. Please don't take this the wrong way in that i am defending what he did, but the fact that this idea even enters your mind is very very disturbing to me. I am very aware that any airsoft weapon must be treated as a real weapon, and that proper safety and caution is required when operating one, however threatening a civilian with a loaded weapon should carry an equal responsibility. Unless Gene was displaying the weapon in a obviously threatening manner there is no need to use lethal force, and if there is even a shred of truth in what Gene is saying, and he did comply with the officer, there is absolutely no need to arrest him, as well as his friends for simply possessing a replica weapon on his property (which, if they are to be treated by law enforcement as real weapons, they should fall under the same protection under the second amendment)
/This opinion is not at all based in law, I don't know the individual ordinances of his area, just a general concern for civil rights. I am not condoning every individual walking around a city heavily armed, but the fact that (what I see as) a gross over reaction to someone who intended no harm to anyone else is not only accepted, but encouraged in a "you asked for it" manor, is absolutely horrifying to me.
//I am aware that I will probably catch a lot of flak for this, but please remember that it is just my opinion, and that I am not condoning Genes actions, or in anyway trying to disrespect the men and women of law enforcement. I am just expressing my concern over how much power is placed in the hands of the police and the state as a whole, over individual rights and property.
In today's society, police officers are already operating at a huge disadvantage. Remember, they are not superheros, they are ordinary citizens performing an extraordinary job. Many have families to raise and deserve to have the chance to go home at the end of their shift. They operate on an "escalation of force" theory. They may use generally one unit of force higher than what is being directed or displayed during an incident. If the officer waited to see what was going on, and the person or persons displaying what the officer believes to be a "replica" firearm because everyone is screaming that it is, unless he acts appropriately (which he did in this case), he may not get the chance to go home. In speaking with several of the police officers at work, they have run across several instances of people painting the tips of their real firearms blaze orange. They have also stated, after looking at some of my personal airsoft guns, that if I had displayed them in public, I would no doubt be looking down the wrong end of a barrel really quick. I work in a relatively upscale community, even so, while working on the ambulance, I carry (and often wear) body armor. I'm not taking the chance of not going home to see my wife and kids at the end of the day. The police officers that we entrust our lives with everyday deserve the exact same opportunity. I don't think Lou, or anyone else that is a part of this community thinks that Gene should have been shot, they are pointing out the fact that it was a very real consequence for displaying an airsoft gun in public. This is my opinion on the incident, but in working with police officers every day (and actually having been an auxilliary officer for a while), I think I have a very good idea of what they face and how they think through these types of incidents.
__________________
Never forget September 11, 2001...FDNY 343..."Team S.T.A.G."...Proud USAF Dad!
To be honest i think everyone on this board makes a good point. the police officer reacted in the way he was trained and with the intention to not get shot. i know if i saw a gun i wouldnt be quick to think it was fake. there's way to many people in this world who are to good at hurting people and finding ways to do it. painting a real gun with an orange tip is a simple way to throw off unsuspecting people. but i have to also agree that after the situation was calmed down and the gun was out of the situation and in the officers hand i personally think he could have seen that it was fake (maybe it was really realistic, full metal, blowback, and having the clip NOT in it made it worse because he couldnt check to see what rounds were in it.) but if he could tell it was fake then i think he could have smoothed the situation over a little better by telling gene to obviously not brandish a weapon in public. i dont think there was any need for the arrests. but i dont know maybe the cops have to do that. this is jus tmy opinion. i think the cop could have let him off with a warning and let him know that it could cause a lot of problems (as you can see) from taking any sort of replica weapon into the open.
you know there are a lot of diffrent feelings going on about this. i agree with lou you are lucky you werent shot. i come from new york and in my area kids get shot alot for carrying replical weapons, then again i come from a gangland, but what is the diffrence if it is real or not. i yell its a fake gun the cop drops his guard and i put three in his chest, or the cop plays it safe detains me and then we talk about it after wards.
read the box your airsoft gun came in.
it should say in bold letters do not brandish in public as this could result in sever law violations in your area.
no civil rights were violated. im going to throw some of my history out there for all of you.
i am a two time felone and have severd four years of my life already locked up behind bars.
one reason was assault with a deadly weapon. when i was in ther i met a kid who became a very close friend. he was in there for robbing a store with a friend useing blue steel looking BB gun (the metal blowback .177 mm)
when the cops arrived they shot his friend dead because he aimed it at them and this kid went down for being with him. point being he did not have the gun but still caught a heavy charge and is now a felone.
so the fact you recived a light punisment is by the grace of what ever higher power a lucky thing.
Originally Posted by Grim
I cannot believe you would say that. Please don't take this the wrong way in that i am defending what he did, but the fact that this idea even enters your mind is very very disturbing to me.
and for the comment you cant belive lou would talk about the police shooting first..
no offence but are you stupied, the are school shootings everyday still and as far as i remeber the world has not gotting bet only worse, so the cop did nothing wrong but act apon the simple textbook manner especialy in today world.
he is lucky the cop did not take it as a possiable threat and put on in his knee cap first, espaecially sence he did not comply right away. you are told to drop your weapon yopu do it right away, you dont have your friends scream at a cop cause all that will do is piss him off that your not listening.
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I would also like to add that about how "his rights were violated", once you break the law, ie. brining an airsoft gun outside, you pretty much give up your rights. I also don't think the officer could give a rat's ass about your rights if you are endangering the public/him anyway.
Have you heard of Miranda rights? I.E. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and may be used against you in the court of law. You have the right to counsel. If you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to you....
If Officers did not give a "rat's ass" about rights, then why was there a case Miranda V. Arizona that went to the supreme court discussing the rights of the accused?
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I was just giving my opinion and I meant that I don't think he would care about his rights when he first got there. If the officer stopped for a second to say "oh wait, maybe I shouldn't do this since it might violate his rights" he could end up dead on the spot. Those rights are for the arrested, what he was talking about was his rights when the officer was pointing his firearm at him.
So let me rephrase that, I don't think the officer could give a rat's ass about your rights when he is fearing for his own life.
I think the officer's actions were completely justified and I was just trying to reinforce that, I'm sorry if it came off that I was being ignorant.
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Last edited by TyrannicWolf : 05-06-2008 at 12:17 PM.
I am sorry i came off a bit strong, Let me rephrase my words.
Yes anything can be used as a weapon and once it is used that way or intent to use it that way is proved then you will be convicted of a crime.
It is not illegal to carry a firearm outside in public (in most areas) I Owen stun guns and i can take them anyplace BUT Philly or some military bases. NOW if you ask your local cop are stun guns legal some will say NO because they don't have a clue. I have studied this fully alot of cops try to enforce the Law they think is should be not what it is.
we often walk down the road carrying a UNLOADED gun when we go hunting.
Airsoft guns are not a firearm and do not fall under the firearm laws. Their can be air gun laws in your area. mostly for discharging not carrying.
That said their is no crime unless you miss use the airsoft gun or discharge it in an area that forbids that. This also is over looking a minor having a air gun that is a 18+ yr old item.
So the bottom line is something else happened they shot it or threatened someone with it in order to be charged a crime.
again this is only how I see it and i would have my lawyer fighting a charge of possession all day long.
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we often walk down the road carrying a UNLOADED gun when we go hunting.
Can you not see the difference between licensed hunters engaged in the lawful act of hunting (or walking to and from the sport) and a random guy out with a gun? Don't hunters unload their guns and have the actions open when walking on the road? Now try that with a handgun that isn't holstered.
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Originally Posted by bkgray115
Airsoft guns are not a firearm and do not fall under the firearm laws. Their can be air gun laws in your area. mostly for discharging not carrying.
Nobody is saying that they are. You don't have to pass a background check for airsoft. Airsoft isn't a weapon. However, the fact that they aren't real doesn't mean you can do stupid stuff with them. Walk into a bank with one and see what happens. Go to a Federal building and visit some people; See if they care that your gun isn't real. Commit a CRIME with a fake gun, and you are STILL charged with a gun crime.
Also, you are an adult. According to Gene's profile, he's 20. I've actually met him, and I thought he was much younger. So now you have a 20 year-old with a replica handgun that looks real. What is a police officer supposed to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkgray115
That said their is no crime unless you miss use the airsoft gun or discharge it in an area that forbids that. This also is over looking a minor having a air gun that is a 18+ yr old item.
So the bottom line is something else happened they shot it or threatened someone with it in order to be charged a crime.
Go back and read Gene's original post. "I was outside my house yesterday, on my porch, showing a springer pistol with a huge orange tip to my friends."
Do you think it was in the box? I'd bet good money it wasn't. We've probably all said some version of the "I was minding my own business and the cops arrested/hassled/detained me", and it has never been true. Of course he was doing something stupid. If he wasn't, the cops wouldn't have seen it.
It sounds like you are in an urban area, house up against the street? Town ordinance against brandishing weapons? If that's the case then I don't have a problem with the reaction you saw.
I, however, have a problem with the harsh tone of many of these posts. Brandishing a weapon on your property is not a ****ing crime (doing so to strike fear in persons, is). Excluding where I live now it was perfectly legal for me to fire weapons in my backyard, and I did so frequently.
its just like sexual harrassment you could be at work with your wife and say something to her and it makes someone else in the room feel comfortable its sexual harassment.
Assault is the same way you could be showing you friend an airsoft replica but if someone on the streets feels 'threatened' its assault.
I cannot speak for the others but i can speak for my 'tone'. I had no problem with gene's original post. Its a shame he didn't get lucky enough to have a cop that would just give him a verbal warning an move on.
I do however have a problem with him explaining why he was right and the officer was wrong. Also it seems to have a tone of unfair treatment which is utter nonsense, incidents like this are only a step away from the types of tragedies that will push our hobby closer to extinction.
So my tone is based on the fact that he doesn't seem to realize that he IS getting off lightly and that the cop COULD HAVE done more but didn't.
Also whats the first thing you do when someone shows you a new airsoft replica?
You aim it and hold it like you were playing with it, how much you wanna bet they were pointing it somewhere when the cop rolled by. I doubt very much that it was just laying in someones hand and that they weren't gripping it and pointing it.
I will not apalogize for my "tone" one bit. Holding an unholstered weapon in public is considered brandishing, and it is illegal to brandish a weapon in a public setting. Why is this so hard to understand?
Bkgray, you are right, you can carry weapons on your persons in the open in PA, as we are an open carry state. Those weapons must be holstered as the the moment they are unholstered the argument for intent can come into play. An unholstered weapon in public=brandishing a weapon. Guess what, that is illegal. As for your stun gun argument, that is different.
Since when did the criminal become the victim? Its people like Gene that will get this sport banned.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
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I'm only trying to have a discussion. There is no "tone" to my posts, I'll tell you I think you are stupid :P
I do, however, take exception to the people that think Gene was treated too harshly. I do agree with Light-Fighter that this "victim mentality" is complete bull**** and needs to stop. And I'm sick of the Second Amendment crying that is propping up in this thread. The Second Amendment has NOTHING to do with this situation, and if you think it does, you really need to crack a book and read.
One more thing, I also used to walk to and from a rifle range with my gun slung, but times were different back then (no, there weren't dinosaurs). I wouldn't DREAM of walking down the street with a slung rifle now, unless I was hunting.
As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes once said, "My right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins". Though I am allowed to carry a firearm in the open, I choose not to because of the panic it might create. Like I said earlier, "Fire" in a crowded theater. If the display of a handgun, replica or not, causes fear or concern in people minding their own business, you are wrong.
In today's society, police officers are already operating at a huge disadvantage. Remember, they are not superheros, they are ordinary citizens performing an extraordinary job. Many have families to raise and deserve to have the chance to go home at the end of their shift.
I am not saying he doesn't, but doesn't Gene deserve the same? especially if he complied with the officers request. Why is escalation of force the FIRST option, and not the last? Not too long ago in Baltimore a young man was shot dead by police because he reached for his cell phone. Yes, you can make the case that he was "stupid" but i think that is hilariously dodging the issue that a young man is dead over such a trivial matter.
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the are school shootings everyday still and as far as i remeber the world has not gotting bet only worse
not even going to comment on that one...
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Can you not see the difference between licensed hunters engaged in the lawful act of hunting (or walking to and from the sport) and a random guy out with a gun? Don't hunters unload their guns and have the actions open when walking on the road? Now try that with a handgun that isn't holstered.
what is the difference so long as someone is carrying a weapon, many people have said "how is the officer to judge intent?" or things of that nature. How is someone supposed to be able to tell a licensed hunter from a any other man carrying a gun, that is setting a bit of a double standard.
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One more thing, I also used to walk to and from a rifle range with my gun slung, but times were different back then (no, there weren't dinosaurs). I wouldn't DREAM of walking down the street with a slung rifle now, unless I was hunting.
And what is so different about "back then" and now, it is perception, and peoples willingness/bias towards assuming someone is out to harm them.
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I, however, have a problem with the harsh tone of many of these posts. Brandishing a weapon on your property is not a ****ing crime (doing so to strike fear in persons, is). Excluding where I live now it was perfectly legal for me to fire weapons in my backyard, and I did so frequently.
That is what I am trying to say, private property =/= "public setting" even if it is a front porch, or at least I don't believe it should be.
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If people honestly think that airsoft is just toys then maybe its time you look into a new hobby because replica weapons are just as dangerous as their real life counterparts.
At understand the post before you jump on me
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How do you tell the difference between someone lawfully carrying a weapon and one that is not? Hunters must have their license displayed and anyone carrying a weapon must have a permit for their firearm and a CCW license that they must show if questioned by a LEO. Airsoft is not a real firearm and no one has any legal right/protection to openly walk around with them without facing some kind of consequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim
At understand the post before you jump on me
Don't start telling others what to do. No place in what you quoted me as saying did I go after you. I was speaking in broad generalities, but go right a head and try to play the victim. If you all want to go into your front yards brandishing airsoft guns because you treat them as toys, well then go for it. You people will destroy the hobby and ruin it for everyone that has enough common sense to treat airsoft in a mature manner. People that do stupid **** like Gene did will cause a US based VCRA bill to be enacted. This whole idea that somehow the original poster was victimized by the police is just disturbing and again, goes along the lines of the sheeple mentality. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
Im done with this thread. Gene should count his blessings that he is not facing felony charges and jailtime, or even worse, being shot and killed by a police officer that was just doing his job.
Funny how people side with criminals the moment they start saying that their rights had somehow been violated. Apparently at some point the defentition of criminal and victim some how switched meaning.
__________________ Just saw a man jogging. For recreation. At 3am. Who's he training to be, batman?
Life is a pop quiz, you never know when the test will occur, it's like we are all sitting in the game show audience of life, we should always be ready to hear "You are the next contestant for 'The **** has Hit the Fan!'"
"Dont suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it." -ID Basic Patrol Academy #156
Last edited by Light-Fighter : 05-06-2008 at 10:37 PM.
I feel bad for you i myself have had trouble with the police as i was playing in my backyard as large as it is in the distance there was a soccer practice and they call the police well after they showed up and had us laying down on our stomachs with are hand and legs spread we finally got to talk to the cops and there were no problems and they actually thought the players should have have really looked at our guns as they have large sections were orange anyway the cops didnt care and they actually played a round with us wierd enough out here in berks county cops dont care if we play
Please read the forum rules and start using things like punctuation, capital letters, and coherent sentences. Posting a "wall of text" is against our forum rules.
That said, I'm glad to hear you didn't get in any trouble. You still need to be cautious of where you play. The next police officer might not be so nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim
That is what I am trying to say, private property =/= "public setting" even if it is a front porch, or at least I don't believe it should be.
If it is in plain view of the public, you ARE in public, therefore you cannot do anything you want. Should we be allowed to stand on our front porches naked? How about you sit on your fence and poop on your property during rush hour? Maybe dig a pit and smelt us up some Iron?
The point I'm trying to make is that in our society, our rights DO NOT grant us the ability to infringe on the rights of others. A display of weapons, real or replica, that causes fear in others is infringing on their rights. All of our rights are equal, and if your actions negatively affect a group of people, you are WRONG. In every situation.
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