Ok, tell us what you DIDN'T like about the game. We are not looking for comments about things we cannot control. I don't want to hear about the following:
The heat (we don't control the weather. Yet.)
You lost, unless it was related to game mechanics
Cheaters: the time to complain about cheaters was on the field when the staff could have done something. Now, it's really just you bitching.
Door Prizes you didn't win, broke, etc.
Telling us about what we (the C3 staff) could have done better helps us to bring you a better game. We listen, we adapt, we make better games. Everyone wants a better game, right? So tell us where we need to improve. List the reasons we suck and tell us why!
Anonymous posting is allowed and encouraged if you don't want to reveal yourself.
Those chrono tags were chosen BECAUSE they are big and noticeable - otherwise we will have to have the staff get up close and right ontop of a person whose gun is in question, as well they allow us to identify any guns that have been snuck out onto the field from a distance making it much much easier to locate cheaters & ban them.
The downside is they are large - if you don't like where it was placed you may ask the person chronoing you to place it somewhere more out of the way - rear sling mounts are popular.
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Jay wasn't Scottish enough ...other than that, it was a good day.
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Pros:
Great, fun action when the day started going
some great objectives
great communication
re spawns were great for getting rest every now and then
Cons:
The first tan 1 objectives were honestly boring and had 5 or less contacts that were not even shooting at us.
When pushing forward many people just walked out and got shot and you just find yourself and four other guys left trying to hold up a mass of enemies, covering fire was ok.
Over all had a great, fun day.
Great job staff!
Last edited by DoubleTom : 05-30-2010 at 09:36 PM.
The game was awsome, and i had a lot of fun. (As always) The only thing i would say is i had a couple people shot at me when i died. Nothing to big of an issue, I would just say explain that rule a little more in detail. Other than that great job to everyone.
While this doesn't stop the event from happening (happened to me a few times on the field) I have to ask... Did you have a red-rag on your head at the time?
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One thing I think would be helpful, is to make red rags mandatory. It is really helpful when someone is wearing a red rag, because it is much easier to identify that they are dead. They are only $2, it's not like people can't afford them. If you can spend the money for the Op registration, you should be able to spend an extra $2 for a red rag. It would really help to keep the confusion at a minimum.
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Like I said - having it does NOT prevent it from happening, and really it is to be 100% expected when walking through a life fire zone - unfortunately just one of those things that falls under "Shizzy we can't control (IS There such a thing? ).
I am asking though because I'm curious as to how often it happened when red ragged & when not red ragged.
__________________ "Get the facts, or the facts will get you. And when you get them, get them right, or they will get you wrong."
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I'm not saying having a red rag will prevent you from getting shot, but if avoids confusion. When I see few guys standing or walking without red rags, I'm not sure if they are dead or not. However, if I see a few guys standing or walking wearing red rags, I look at them and I am able to tell they are dead, and don't question if they are dead or not and don't shoot them. Of course you are going to be shot either way. I was shot plenty of times while standing around wearing a red rag. It's more for avoiding confusion.
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Can we work on the dissemination of information at the platoon level? It's already been discussed, but I feel it warrants a post. Our platoon was uninformed as to the timed nature of the Comms Station objective, and were not notified directly (read: officially) that there was an objective evolution. I'm not sure if this was a communication problem, or just a chain-of-command-frak-up-where-I-beat-you-with-the-actual-chain-of-command. And I hate to be greedy, but I think it would be good incentive to get people to come early if the first 20-25 people (NON-STAFF) on the field would be given a second raffle ticket. That makes sure everyone gets there early. (Also, so I can win that SIG >.>)
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I'd be more apt to give an extra raffle ticket if you arrive ON TIME to chrono with your platoon.
Delays like that, that C3 can not control, cause delays to the game day schedule that we can not control. If an extra ticket got people there on time, I'd vote in favor of that.
I agree with the red rags. There were a few points in time where I would hit somebody and they just continue to walk. I would hit them again and they would scream at me, "Can't you see I'm already out!!!" Without saying a word or showing any sign he was out, he sxpects me to know he is out? WTF
Also I would like to say that i like what our platoon leader did was a great idea. Green platoon 1's leader counted to 10 out loud if he saw a group of people not moving and said he would shoot them if they did not move. I dont know about you guys but i loved that he was doing that because it gave me the option of, 1 stay here and get shot by my own leader, and have to respawn, or MOVE! And every time people moved and i thought that was a great idea and helped green advance a lot more quickly that what we would have if he had not done that. And if we do that i think we may be able to solve the problems with people not moving and staying behind cover thats happening during weekly and big games.
And if we do that i think we may be able to solve the problems with people not moving and staying behind cover thats happening during weekly and big games.
We've been doing that for quite a while... it's just the first time you experienced it.
Although, most of this I've already talked to Steve about - but I'll just add it here anyway.
Steve - SPEAK UP!!! (Cue Lou to give Steve lessons on how to be LOUD on the mic)
Standing on the table was a great idea - just need to be much much louder.
He forgot to tell everyone about the C3 bonus cards and didn't talk about the staff cards. I knew about them and personally forgot to tell my platoon about them .
Perhaps something to add to the morning briefings - is talk about what happens after you re spawn and head back to headquarters. And this is especially important for those people who don't have a radio. The steps they can take to find fellow platoon members, get communications from PL or staff, and get themselves back to their platoon and back in the game.
*I personally didn't have any problems and I think our platoon did a great job at finding each other, getting communications (Thanks Wayne!), and getting back to where we needed to be. In fact, I think this game was one of the best games I've had in terms of communications/instructions.
The only real problems I saw in regards to dead rags (or lack of) - was the people who were dead, awaiting for a medic. They were hiding behind cover - they either didn't have a dead rag or you couldn't visibly SEE the dead rag from your location. You couldn't really tell if they were dead or not. I'm really not sure how (or if) this could be remedied. Perhaps waving the flag above their head while they wait for the medic? Having a red rag is important but understand that if we can't see the dead rag or you don't have one, we don't know you're dead. You're gonna get shot at - it's the nature of the beast.
There was only one thing I noticed and this is only the rambling from on old fat guy. As a squad sized group was fighting down a hill When Lou yelled out that we were to be looking for a book in that area. Well that figures i found it 10 mins proir to me being told that we need to look out for it. I told him i had already foud it and couldn't find any staff to ask if it was in play or not. So again being fat and lazy i had to hike back up the hill instead of trying to say it's right there behind that rock ( yea in a field of rocks). I t might have been just me not listening again prior to the mission or the fact that we moved to far forward to fast.
But with everything i saw and herd i cant think of one complaint, comment or any thing thanks to C-3 staff for a great game.
O wait yea i have a complaint my hand kept burning from the motor in my gun's grip. From all the green that kept charging only to eat plastic.
I have no real control group, as this was my first official Op, however, it was a great day! Very organized, well planned, and the missions were fun. No complaints from me.
I was not loud enough on the bullhorn, during the morning briefing, even though it was turned up the whole way. I know better for next time. First time on the horn, so to speak.
I neglected to talk about the C3 bonus cards at the briefing, even though we had a post in each team forum. My bad, I forgot to mention them.
We had cards on the field that were to be taken as bonus cards (black C3 cards), and cards that were mission specific that should not have been moved (ID cards, and Intel cards), and I can understand the confusion that caused. Again, this should have been mentioned during the briefing.
I did not mention that any items (props) found should be left where they were found, unless they were specific to the current mission. Items got moved during early missions that screwed up future missions.
We had several props in close proximity that could be confused for one another, causing confusion at the command level. (i.e. Memoirs, and a foreign paperback book.)
We needed the caution tape surrounding our command tent way earlier in the day. I'm sorry to those that I was extremely short with while trying to command the troops. Sorry I couldn't fix your gun problems on the spot, or chrono you immediately. We shoo'd people away, sometimes quite abruptly. Understand that we couldn't socialize with you while trying to keep 132 people organized.
The biggest game mechanic issue sin my opinion were:
1.) The fence was ignored. I saw both tan and green players going right under the caution tape. At first I thought that was the gap, but then I realized that there was a physical gap in the fence. Next time a fence is implemented, it might be a good idea to double up on the tape to make it more obvious that it is the fence, as some who I spoke to didn't even know it was the fence, and to make it harder to just slip under..
2.) Like Steve said, there were a lot of mix ups with the objectives. People were moving objectives that were not supposed to be moved (yet.) I think that (if possible) some objectives should not be put onto the field until they are ready to become an active objective. Of course, I understand that doing so could potentially be an issue.
Despite this, I haf a blast and I am already pumped for the next one!
Great game....better than most I've been to....my suggestions:
1. Steve was loud enough on the bullhorn, but the crowd was wider than the bullhorn's speaker area. Maybe a area-wide PA system? We had this problem at Pine Plains as well.
2. The respawn procedure needs not be changed. The extra time in the safe zone was good from the standpoint of making people take a break, drink, eat, reload, etc. This probably saved a heat exhaustion or two.
3. Players that have to be corrected by a staff member need NOT be cursed at with anger and vulgarity, especially if it's their first time/offense at a C3 game. All corrections and even ejections should be accomplished in a professional manner......that is if you want a professional reputation. Now if you have repeat offenders, then I'd say ramp up the volume and anger with each problem.
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3. Players that have to be corrected by a staff member need NOT be cursed at with anger and vulgarity, especially if it's their first time/offense at a C3 game. All corrections and even ejections should be accomplished in a professional manner......that is if you want a professional reputation. Now if you have repeat offenders, then I'd say ramp up the volume and anger with each problem.
I agree. I would say Jeff did it very professionally at the end of the day, right before the last fight.
Thinking about past Operations, and fully realizing the limitation of Poco Loco as a field. Perhaps some thought needs to be put into locations of each Headquarters. It has always been one on top of the hill near the Helicopter and the other has always been in the abysmal swamp.
Has any thought been put into playing the PL field other than extreme lengthwise? Moving the HQ could possible change the dynamic of the game. Whether or not it can be done and keep each HQ and spawn point balanced I don't know.
Every time there has been a fence prop it has been ignored to a large extent. This has happened at OP MS. OP HS and OP FW. Maybe instead of a tape or rope, something more viable need to be made up such as filter fabric or caution fencing.
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Every time there has been a fence prop it has been ignored to a large extent. This has happened at OP MS. OP HS and OP FW. Maybe instead of a tape or rope, something more viable need to be made up such as filter fabric or caution fencing.
Jesus, that crap is expensive. Therein lies the problem.
I think in addition to the safety briefing, we need to hold up a piece of caution tape and say "See this? This is an electric fence and touching it will kill you. And your family." Then, if lollers disregard it, the team's liaison can send them to respawn.
Jesus, that crap is expensive. Therein lies the problem.
I think in addition to the safety briefing, we need to hold up a piece of caution tape and say "See this? This is an electric fence and touching it will kill you. And your family." Then, if lollers disregard it, the team's liaison can send them to respawn.
I like your solution.
My biggest and only "tiff" from the day was that the objectives and props were too easily snatched by any loller to walk by. This caused numerous problems for me and I heard numerous complaints about this. Not really sure what the staff can do about it seeing as how it is clearly the lollers who are at fault for this problem.
This OP really opened my eyes to the extreme potential for airsoft games. Congratulations to Steve and Jay you ran a wonderful game.
Well, it's not like people were not warned about it, in addition to there being a point penalty for it all.
Fun fact: If all props were left as they were supposed to be, it would have actually been a legitimate tie game! Not one of those Special Olympics "Everyone is a Winner!" ties (which are fine for their arenas) but an honest to god tie game.
Just a note for future events that anyone attends, and for life in general. If you're not supposed to fiddle with it - don't.
__________________ "Get the facts, or the facts will get you. And when you get them, get them right, or they will get you wrong."
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Has any thought been put into playing the PL field other than extreme lengthwise? Moving the HQ could possible change the dynamic of the game. Whether or not it can be done and keep each HQ and spawn point balanced I don't know.
The Burning Rain game, a base was at the bottom of the gun hill.
Thinking about past Operations, and fully realizing the limitation of Poco Loco as a field. Perhaps some thought needs to be put into locations of each Headquarters. It has always been one on top of the hill near the Helicopter and the other has always been in the abysmal swamp.
Emphasis mine.
Jay, maybe we should have though about where to put the HQs???
Jeremy,
We certainly thought out the HQ locations. Placing them at the field extents was important for the mission set that was written for OP:FW, as evidenced in the afternoon evolution. The Green team was in the game mainly due to their effort in returning staff cards from high value targets, and those black C3 bonus cards. Tan was up in points because they successfully completed more missions.
We decided to move the Green HQ out of the swamp so it was closer to the safe zone to make your respawns more expeditious. Look what happened next... Tan rolled in and took your HQ, due to it's modified location. They wouldn't have gotten close if we left it at the swamp cross-roads.
Each field has "limitations" and I think LP and PL are both awesome fields in their own rights. LP for it's size, and cover. PL for it's varied elevation and terrain. Both work well in supporting our large operations.
Also, Jay and I received no reports, during the day, of people crossing the fence. Why didn't that happen?
Use your chain of command and get that reported. We took care of many "issues" that cropped up, when reported through the chain of command, and passed it down through the other team's chain of command. We were very efficient in addressing on-field issues, and both team's PLs and Liaisons red-ragged numerous times to immediately address reported issues.
If you see something happening on the field that is contrary to a game mechanic, please report it to your PL.
I agree with Lou that showing the CAUTION tape in the briefing might have helped. I say might because at lunch I made a very specific announcement regarding the Black C3 bonus cards, and the other cards that were specifically to be left alone. I showed examples of what to bring back for bonus points, and what not to touch unless specifically told to do so by your PL.
Not 30 minutes after that show-n-tell a TAN player came running in with a white Intel card, netting us a penalty.
Show-n-tell only works if people pay attention.
Quoted for absolute truth. You can hold their hands and bring them out to the fence and directly point it out to them, if they aren't paying attention, you're wasting your time.
But honestly, borders aren't rocket science. There's no borders, anywhere, in the field... (they were all dropped) suddenly you come across one and decide to cross it.... WHY?! What possible explanation can you provide to justify that THIS border, the only one you've seen, is crossable?
"Because you didn't know it wasn't crossable?" Seriously? Do I also need to inform you that water is wet and fire is hot?
We were talking it over at the store and thought it might be helpful to have a staff member at each HQ to advise re-spawning players of the current objective and approximate location of their platoon. A few times I re-inserted into the game and had no idea what I supposed to be looking for or accomplishing other than shooting enemy players.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montarmynavy
We were talking it over at the store and thought it might be helpful to have a staff member at each HQ to advise re-spawning players of the current objective and approximate location of their platoon. A few times I re-inserted into the game and had no idea what I supposed to be looking for or accomplishing other than shooting enemy players.
100% agree. At one point 1st platoon was so small that we went on a support mission but once we respawned we had no idea of what to do or where everyone else was.
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100% agree. At one point 1st platoon was so small that we went on a support mission but once we respawned we had no idea of what to do or where everyone else was.
I agree too. We had the same problem when returning to our HQ. The mission had changed and we did not know where to find our platoon. When we called on our radios we could not get a reply.
That is another subject: Radios. While they should give us an advantage, it always seems as though someone is keying their mike on a sub-frequency so that all we can hear is white noise. It gets extremely annoying; to the point that we end up shutting our radios off, defeating the point of carrying them. I don't know the answer, and am not even sure that it is something that can be remedied when we are dealing with 132+ people.
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someone is keying their mike on a sub-frequency so that all we can hear is white noise.
It's one of the most terrible problems with using radios: people. VOX, cheap mics, cheap headsets, $10 throat mics, call buttons... it's an inescapable facet of airsoft (or any activity using radios) that at least one person will be heavy breathing with VOX on or hitting the call button with their chin or yelling incomprehensibly into their muffled throat mic.
This is why staff moved off into the blissful realm of not-FRS. We rarely get anyone singing Louie-Louie anymore.
We were talking it over at the store and thought it might be helpful to have a staff member at each HQ to advise re-spawning players of the current objective and approximate location of their platoon. A few times I re-inserted into the game and had no idea what I supposed to be looking for or accomplishing other than shooting enemy players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sungod88
100% agree. At one point 1st platoon was so small that we went on a support mission but once we respawned we had no idea of what to do or where everyone else was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
I agree too. We had the same problem when returning to our HQ. The mission had changed and we did not know where to find our platoon. When we called on our radios we could not get a reply.
That is another subject: Radios. While they should give us an advantage, it always seems as though someone is keying their mike on a sub-frequency so that all we can hear is white noise. It gets extremely annoying; to the point that we end up shutting our radios off, defeating the point of carrying them. I don't know the answer, and am not even sure that it is something that can be remedied when we are dealing with 132+ people.
Quick question: How is someone who's sole job is to sit at the HQ going to know exactly where everyone is at any given time? Especially if you're unable to get a response on your radio? We're using the same channels you are(note: not liaisons as they are on something else entirely).
Missions change on the fly during the day. One of the reasons we've never posted anything beyond the first mission or so is because we adapt the missions as the day calls for it. We don't just draw them out of a hat and say "this is what they're doing", the day almost becomes a chess game between the force commanders to see who can win. If tan is having an easy time doing something, without prior expectation, green sends some guys to harass them (whether or not they make it there is anyone's guess)
My point is there's no way someone stuck in a HQ is going to know any more than you with your radio.
If you're getting no response due to reception or someone constantly keying the mic, there obviously isn't anything we, as organizers, can do there. At best, I can only suggest that you all check your radios prior to deploying to make sure they work with the PLs/SLs radio, check to make sure everyone has fresh batteries, and make sure you reiterate WHO exactly should be on the radio and for what. Everyone screaming into the mic "WE NEED REINFORCEMENTS" is not something that should be transmitted.
Ideally, what SHOULD happen is:
You respawn
Get on the horn with your SL (or if you're SL with your PL) and find out where you are to be.
Look at your map (that you were given on the forums), and figure out where you are and where you're going.
Hang with the friendlies as a large group until you get to a place where you can break off and go where your Platoon is. Mowing down any enemy in the process.
But the only people that should ever be on Radio are
Respawning groups (communicating where they need to go)
Squad Leaders (for communication with Platoon Leaders)
Platoon Leaders (for communicating with Force Command)
Liaisons (communicating with other liaisons to keep up policing efforts)
Everyone else should be yelling to each other, not using the radio. And even SLs should be yelling to their PL unless they are where they're not supposed to be(read: out of earshot).
If all else fails, keep fighting with your surrounded friendlies until you find your platoon. It's not like any one platoon wins the war, so long as you're taking out the bad guys, you'll be giving your team an advantage.
It was really good! The respawn horns should have been ten minutes between each one because people want to get into the actiona and not leave one guy on a another guy sitting behind a rock for awhile waiting for thier whole squad to respawn.
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It was really good! The respawn horns should have been ten minutes between each one because people want to get into the actiona and not leave one guy on a another guy sitting behind a rock for awhile waiting for thier whole squad to respawn.
15 minutes is fine. Rarely is anyone sitting in the safe zone for the full 15. Besides it gives people enough time to cool down and rehydrate/rearm.
We were talking it over at the store and thought it might be helpful to have a staff member at each HQ to advise re-spawning players of the current objective and approximate location of their platoon. A few times I re-inserted into the game and had no idea what I supposed to be looking for or accomplishing other than shooting enemy players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
I agree too. We had the same problem when returning to our HQ. The mission had changed and we did not know where to find our platoon. When we called on our radios we could not get a reply.
Not to pile on after Randy's comments, but has either of you been to a game where what either of you are requesting has been done? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I don't know. I've been to several Lionclaws games, but I've only ever been told my mission, and that was it for 2~4 hours.
As far as radios...every platoon needs a radioman. Everyone else who isn't the commander, liaison, and the radioman needs to STFU and just listen to the radio. When you are fighting, if you aren't in yelling distance of somebody within your chain of command, you are doing it wrong. Find the lollers that are using the radio like Ventrillo and shoot them every time they break radio protocol.
Not to pile on after Randy's comments, but has either of you been to a game where what either of you are requesting has been done? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I don't know. I've been to several Lionclaws games, but I've only ever been told my mission, and that was it for 2~4 hours.
I think the whole problem is not with needing someone to stand there to tell us what our current task is when we respawn, it is more of a communication issue. Radios are incredibly useful but all it takes is one with a radio with vox left on and it blows it for everyone else. It's nothing new, and we hear about that every single op.
Regardless, I think the radios are our only hope for solving the issue in the long run.
On another subject, in my opinion the 15 minute respawns added to the op. Dealing with attrition adds another element to the game. Instant respawns gives non-stop action but is less "realistic".
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I've done an awful lot of radio research into handhelds for airsoft. The honest truth is that a decent radio really starts at the $75 mark, closer to $100, and rockets quickly into $250 to $500. A decent headset or shoulder mic is also around $75 and goes up to a few hundred. These bubble packed radios at Best Buy are mediocre at best, buttered ass at worst. Your throat mic should be thrown away. There's a real reason why no serious radio has VOX, and absolutely none of them have call buttons. Ever.
I get some really good sound from the better radios. The Yaesu rigs compared to Motorola talkabouts are noticeably better, clearer and cleaner.
Having insulted your radio and headset, I will say that it's still mostly about how it's used. People brag about AEGs and springs and sights, but even more important is teamwork, a sharp eye, and radio discipline. But nobody brags about those, or really tends to sink any time or effort into them.
Tan command was on FRS and was solid, even with constant use and a dozen people on it. It was more important than any AEG, and it got the respect it needed. And it worked very well with a mix of cheap and pro rigs. Most people spend as much time and thought on a radio as they do their socks, when it really is one of the more powerful things you can carry.
*shrug*
I guess it's not how big it is (or expensive, or powerful) but how you use it. Of course, it's good to be both.
Best thing you can do is form up a team and work on radio discipline. But it still comes down to the fact that there will always be someone on VOX with asthma and a giggling problem on an op. Next time around chime in and encourage people to get a quality headset, or at least a radio with no call button or VOX.
I had NO trouble finding my guys after the few times respawning. I think if anyone did it was due to No radio or inexperience using one. Saying you platoon name into the radio once and "where are you" over and over doesn't work to well as some of you found out. You have to remember your platoon is in the middle of a game not waiting for your return. Everytime I called "Tan 3, Tan 3 whats your location" I got a response within a minute or two. Repeated yelling into the mic just annoys people then they don't respond out of being annoyed. I walked past ALOT of players yelling into a radio just causing confusion.
As for a radio. I was just using a old Motorola Talk About Plus. While in the Safezone waiting to respawn, I had no trouble picking up radio communication with my squad when they were at the Guns Field at the fence.
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I can understand the frustration of people now knowing where to go or what to do. Believe me, we've ALL experienced it in previous game situations. It's the nature of the beast.
You guys just need to grab the bull by the horns and motivate yourself to get the information you need.
If you have a radio:
Your platoon leader, Squad leaders, & liaisons all have radios. If you don't get a response by talking to them, then sit for a few minutes and LISTEN. They'll eventually start talking and you should be able to figure out where they are OR they'll be 'freed' up enough to respond to you if you call them again. Just don't hog up the channel and constantly call for them - they might be busy! Relax and give it some time.
If you don't have a radio, gather up your fellow platoon members and maybe one of you has a radio. If not - ask another platoon member, squad leader, or staff. And if you're still stuck at the HQ wondering what to do.....then file in with another platoon and get back into the action! The next time you re spawn, you'll have another opportunity to find your platoon. Just don't sit there at HQ wondering what to do.
If your a player who has a radio and knows exactly where to go - you guys need to gather up your fellow platoon members at HQ and lead them back to your platoon.
...other than that, it was a good day.
).
. 
We shoo'd people away, sometimes quite abruptly. Understand that we couldn't socialize with you while trying to keep 132 people organized.
