I’ve taken a LOT of heat for this post, so there are a few things I would like to clarify:
Nobody here at c3 cares what type of gun you have. Our motto has always been “If it shoots, it’s playable”. If YOU are happy with your AEG, then we are happy for you. Players are just as “dead” when hit by a $10 spring pistol as they are when hit by a $1,000 sniper rifle. We really just want you to play safely and have fun.
The views expressed in this post are MY opinion and are based on MY experience. You are welcome to disagree, but I believe what I am saying is true.
If you have already bought an AEG – STOP READING. This guide is for people NEW to the sport and considering their first gun. It is not intended for even occasional players.
If you are a new player that went ahead and bought a gun without doing any research, your feelings might get hurt reading this. This was NEVER my intention. This was written to prevent new users, especially our younger members, from making expensive mistakes.
Airsoft is an EXPENSIVE hobby. There is no way around this fact. Quality AEGs are expensive, but expensive AEGs aren’t always quality.
Reviews on retailer’s websites should NOT be believed. Often, they are written by people who have just ordered or just received their gun. Even the product descriptions on retailer websites should be taken with a grain of salt – THEY want your money, and nobody ever advertises the negative aspects of a product. If you want the real facts about a particular gun, talk to the PLAYERS. Read reviews on this and other player owned websites.
Well, now that you’ve read that, click this link and read an article comparing TM and CA, listing all the costs associated with each gun. Thanks to Wingman Goober for forwarding this information to me.
Anyway, here are my feelings on the different manufacturers of AEGs
BE, DE, WELL, CYMA, CROSSMAN
These guns are essentially low-grade toys, and will not stand up to heavy use. They are generally not made of high quality materials, and they tend to break easily. No matter how good the ad for the gun says they are, they are still low-grade toys. I do not recommend these guns for anyone.
UTG, AIM, etc.
These guns are meant for light use and/or the occasional game. They are made in China and imported to the USA under various names. They are not the AEG to buy if you plan on playing every week, but they CAN be decent starter guns for new players. But be warned, they are built cheaply, and every possible corner that can be cut HAS been cut. No matter how they are marketed, these guns are not an equal to Tokyo Marui or Classic Army guns.
Upgrading these guns is generally a bad idea. The internals in these guns don't typically last more than 6 or 7 months when left "stock"; there really is no chance that it'll hold a 400FPS spring. To upgrade it at all, you are going to have to practically buy a whole new gearbox, which will end up costing as much as a new Tokyo Marui.
Still, a stock UTG can provide a new player with a lot of enjoyment. UTGs are the least expensive gun that I am comfortable recommending, just be aware that they aren’t the best quality. If you are looking for a gun to play with for 2 to 4 months while seeing if airsoft is for you, consider a UTG.
ECHO-1
Echo-1 M4/M16s are made by Jing Gong in China and are subjected to stricter quality control than JGs. Based on our early experience with the Echo-1s, they are probably the best "clone" gun that you can buy. If you are looking to try airsoft and you are on a budget, you can do a heck of a lot worse than an Echo-1, specifically the M4/M16s. At this writing, I don't have any experience with the other models. I also do not believe that JG branded guns are made to the same standards as Echo-1s, but I don't have any data to back that up. It's just my opinion.
Tokyo Marui
Tokyo Marui AEGs are the “gold standard” of airsoft. These are the most reliable, best engineered, and most rigorously tested guns out there. If you can afford it, this is the brand of gun you should be looking at if you're new to airsoft. Since they are ultra-reliable, new players can concentrate on learning strategy and tactics without worrying about their gun. You cannot go wrong buying a TM.
Classic Army
Some will argue CAs are better than TM. I disagree. A metal body does not ensure gear-box longevity. The first CAs were complete garbage, but CA has made EXCELLENT strides in the recent years with their quality control. However, they are still prone to failure – sometimes right out of the box. If you are mechanically inclined and like to tinker with gears and small parts, you will like Classic Army. If you are a new player, I think you should stick to TM while you are learning to play.
I do not recommend these guns for new players, but only because I have seen so many of them break. Still, if you really want one, go nuts. Just know what you are getting into.
ICS/AE
Not as reliable as Classic Army. Failures right out of the box are unfortunately common. New players should avoid ICS/AE weapons. Not recommended.
UPDATE: The new generation of ICS M4s seem to be far more reliable than their predecessors. Perhaps ICS has gotten their act together...only time will tell. I still caution new players to avoid ICS/AE guns at this time.
G&G
Their guns can be decent, but failures are still common (though they are getting better). But the occasional "refuses to work" gun is known to happen. Recommended for experienced players only.
Sniper Rifles
Airsoft isn’t Counter Strike. Bunny-hopping and running around the field with a sniper rifle will get you shot by players with AEGs. Airsoft sniper rifles are not “Hand of God” weapons that will enable you to sit safely out of range and shoot enemy players. It ain’t gonna happen, so please don’t try. Additionally, a decent airsoft sniper rifle will cost you well over $600. Probably twice that. Sniper Rifles are not recommended for beginners. And the Super 9 should be avoided like the Plague.
If you want to use a sniper rifle, you need to understand the role of the sniper first. Snipers sit and wait. That’s what they do. The job of a sniper is to find a spot and hide – waiting for the chance to make a critical shot at the right time. If this is what you are interested in doing, then a sniper rifle is the right gun for you. If you become bored easily, sniping isn’t for you and I recommend you buy an AEG.
good post, but i disagree with something. my first electric gun was a DE m83, and i bought it almost a year ago. Sure it's a total piece of crap thats fun for shooting 30 or less feet, but they can last but they really suck.
good post, but i disagree with something. my first electric gun was a DE m83, and i bought it almost a year ago. Sure it's a total piece of crap thats fun for shooting 30 or less feet, but they can last but they really suck.
So you disagree that they suck, but they suck? Your logic frightens and confuses me.
Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your First AEG?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zac
well you said they'll break in a few weeks..
I've seen many of them break after a few games (not days, GAMES). I'm happy that yours lasted. But that doesn't change the fact that I will not recommend them.
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your First AEG?
so you seem to think that my utg mp5 that i spent $110 on is poop?
well if thats the case and i need to pay $200-$400 dollars to have fun screw, im going back to paint ball!!
-thesleeper
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Iya ulerya ouya
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your First AEG?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesleeper
so you seem to think that my utg mp5 that i spent $110 on is poop?
well if thats the case and i need to pay $200-$400 dollars to have fun screw, im going back to paint ball!!
-thesleeper
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your First AE
dude i totaly have a great time every time but "happy fun..." guy sounds like
an info-mercial for tm and dosent really offer any other alternative
i just need to educate myself more in terms of my playing style and the results im
looking for.
but all this talk of your $100 dollar gun is gonna break tomarrow makes me sad!!
is their any way to avoid problems w/ my utg or is that just nature of the beast??
im not so much upset about the price of a tm as i am the price of the supposedly crappy
utg. i can deal w/ $300 for a sure thing but $100 for crap is hard to swallow!
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Iya ulerya ouya
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your First AE
you are getting what you paid for, if you cheap out yeah it will be cheap back and break. and if you are considering going back to paintball that's one option but price it out first. the airsoft gun is more expensive, but the battery is rechargable and ammo costs $14 for 3700bb's as opposed to fills for co2 and then paint which you get raped on. its actually more economically sound to choose airsoft. But yeah the gun will break just a matter of when. we may sound like a mauri commercial but that's from a lot of experience seeing other guns crap out while the tm's keep working.
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your First AE
I understand opinions are subjective and are skewed by an individual's perception. So here's my own skewed 2 cents worth
Most of the sage advise given is gathered from experience - considerable direct experience with the brands mentioned - most notably TMs.
But lumping the AIM as ...built cheap, made with substandard materials, and every possible corner that can be cut HAS been cut. is NOT true - ok I'll qualify that - not ENTIRELY true. This rifle has its own merits and demerits, just like CAs, ICSs and G&Gs - I'd be happy to discuss in an appropriate forum, suffice it to say I would not call it 'sucky' nor predict an early demise.
True the AIM is not a TM, but its way better than a UTG, pound for pound, feature for feature. As for the concept/economics of upgrading, well thats probably another discussion altogether.
The topic of this sticky is highly relevant and I would wager a great resource for all. To head off a 'mine is better than yours' cascade why not post real measurable statistics for the brands mentioned above. Like a consumer report's car buyers guide - stats, warts and all.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your Firs
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesleeper
dude i totaly have a great time every time but "happy fun..." guy sounds like an info-mercial for tm and dosent really offer any other alternative i just need to educate myself more in terms of my playing style and the results im looking for.
Once you have educated yourself and gained some experience, you will see that I am correct. :) . I'm just trying to save you some money in the long run.
This is the NEW USER'S SECTION. I don't care about your opinion (or yours, Ari). If you want to recommend UTG to everyone, go right ahead. I've seen plenty of people have lots of fun with their UTG MP5s, and I've also seen the dissapointment on their faces when they break. I've seen the AIM M4 that Ari gave Victor have trouble right out of the box. If someone complains to me about your recommendation, I will laugh at them.
As far as my initial post sounding like an "infomercial", read the maintenance section of these forums, see how many people have trouble with CA and ICS guns. Then look for Marui. Go ahead, I'll wait. Now go to other forums and do the same. Do you see a pattern? I certainly do.
The purpose of my initial post isn't to make fun of anyone's gun. My personal philosiphy has always been simple - if it shoots, it's playable. You aren't spending my money, and you really should buy what is right for you. However, although I don't care what gun you buy, I'm getting tired of saying the same thing several times EVERY WEEK to the new players that join. That's why I made this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arivee
To head off a 'mine is better than yours' cascade why not post real measurable statistics for the brands mentioned above. Like a consumer report's car buyers guide - stats, warts and all.
How about YOU get to work on that right away. Or, you can do a cost analysis on why it was cheaper to buy your AIM M4 and replace all of the things that you did rather than buy a TM. Please factor in the cost of your time and include a graph. Don't forget to include how much game time your gun has seen since you've installed these upgrades. THEN justify it from a newbie's perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coeus
...
no trout love :(
Why do you love a gun that you have to duct tape together?
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your
Ari, the AIM does suck. If you're trying to pass your gun off as an AIM because it STARTED as an AIM, don't. You've upgraded and tweaked everything so much, it doesn't even count anymore. I haven't seen or heard of an AIM stock lasting. And I'm not going to do a market report just because you don't like the fact that AIMs are in the same class with UTGs.
Leave your AIM, UTG, A&K, others guns stock, and see how long they last. Then say something. Not ONE of you can say "My AIM/UTG/BE STOCK Gun has been running for a year with moderate-to-heavy gaming without any problems!" While others with TMs and even CAs (though not as much) can say their gun has been running for 2 years without a single incident.
And Coeus, I'm not sure why you even needed to post that comment about "no trout love", but since you did, fine: Your gun doesn't even work when we last checked in on it. It was duct-taped in all sorts of places, and I heard it stopped firing completely. If i'm not mistaken, you also broke your AK paratrooper gun by UTG. You had that....what... all of 2 weeks? Yeah, it was a stock issue, but still.
Oh yeah, these are guns to recommend to people who are new.
What you SHOULD be doing is saying to the new people "If you like putting 10+ hours of maintenance into your gun in the first few weeks of owning your gun, then UTG/AIM/BE/Etc are the way to go."
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your
My brother Erik has the same financial concerns some of you guys brought up here. He and I discussed much of the same information that Lou posted here. Erik likes airsoft and doesn't want to blow his family budget on an AEG so he got a UTG MP5. The gun has "held up" nicely for him and mostly works fine. It's worth noting however that Erik also has probably played airsoft three times since last Christmas when my sister-in-law bought the thing for him, and they were neither intense games nor with nasty weather conditions. That being said, is anyone here who is really into airsoft and only want's to play two or three games in six months? The UTG may hold up for you then. Most of players like to get out and play at least twice or more per month or I've been to games at PL both in a torrential downpour and in cold winter conditions.
When it comes to functioning, alot of guys have had problems with UTG's, an undisputed fact. But no one is saying you can't have a good time with an inexpensive AEG, just that if you buy one as a starter gun you may find your gun down in the middle of a big event some time and be SOL.
Granted I have a UTG, but I only keep it now as a backup for extra players, and I initially bought it out of curiosity. My TM's have been running strong since I bought them and my brother Marc took about three games worth of life out of my M4 each time he borrowed it over the last two years. My Classic Army forced me to crack the mechbox before I ever officially scirmished with it and the first time out to Philly she froze up on me. I say a little prayer to the patron saint of mechboxes each game day and knock on wood I haven't had any problems since. I always keep in mind however that cracking the mech box wasn't fun and I really don't want to do it again if I can help it.
Had I to do it again I'd probably have bought two TM 733's and spent a little extra on a metal body or two. I'd still have bought the UTG, but I have a reliable gun. That mostly eliminates the barrel wobble problem, gives me the TM reliability and adds on the stability of the metal body. That's my own personal opinion and I'm sure someone disagrees with it.
Interested in a buyer's guide? The closest anyone will come to a buyer's guide is on an airsoft forum like this one, and honest experience based on the opinions of other players are important. Ari's apparently has had a bit of good experience with the AIM brand and his opinion isn't going to be changed anymore than mine on the Makarov PM (I'm not starting on that one again Lou, Cy & TJ) but new players need the information to make an informed purchase. That will also go the same for the UTG brand or any of the other of the budget guns. Crap may have been a messy word to use, but I believe Lou is just trying to drive home the point.
As for price comparasins. Look to Arnie's Airsoft. They did a workup there for upgrading a UTG MP5 and TM MP5 side by side. In the end the two guns came out about the same with much more time an energy being put into the UTG to bring it up to specs and I believe there were still potential long term questions with the UTG. I think I'll pass on the upgrade.
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: So You Want to Buy Your
no one is debating fun. I can and have had fun with a $2 springer. we are letting everyone know what they are looking at. and yeah ari the aim m4 uses substandard materials. the plastics for one are of a weaker compound and the molds they use are not a 100% copy to mauri, they are close but no cigar. Buy whatever you like, this isn't saying you can only have fun with a mauri, its stating don't be surprised or bitch when your *insert other brand here* breaks, because this thread is a great big i told you so. you are going into your first purchase a bit more informed.
Just a little perpective... let's not sweat the small stuff right now.
Maybe this posting about the different guns and brands sounds condescending to those who don't own TM's. Maybe it should have been written a bit more PC since nobody really wants to feel bad about their guns. However the goal of the posting is not to ridicule anyone's gun or make anyone feel bad. Rather it's meant to be a rule of thumb for those who wouldn't know any better. Its purpose is to set some general expectations, and maybe save some newbies money in the long run.
The keyword is "general". Cyma's and UTG's and AIMs may be classified as "inferiors" to TM's and CA's but there can and will be exceptions in reliability, longevity, performance, etc (okay maybe not Cyma). If someone's lucky enough to own one of these exceptions, good for him and the joke is on everyone else who had to shell out more to get the same performance.
The truth is nobody really cares what each and everyone has. People may admire so and so's gun, but when you're out on the field what matters is whether you accomplished the mission, shot a few of the other team, died some spectacular deaths, got some exercise, fulfilled some fantasies (not THAT fantasy!) and had some good laughs.
My personal motto is: It's not whether you have a good gun or not (or upgraded or not), it's how good you look with it for the inevitable pictures that will be taken (HAHA okay that's a joke but still kinda true)
ANYWAAAY let's just remember that at the end of the day, this posting about guns and their classifications ("caste system") is really just someone's opinion. It's not a natural law of physics. Take what you can get from it, ignore the rest that you don't agree with. Have fun. Shoot the guy who wrote it with your Cyma at the next game. Have the last laugh.
Well/Cyma/BE/CSI are for the most part toys, that will not last, so that foolish parents will buy a new one every birthday/christmas.
AIM/UTG, these are the no-frills, econony, starter models. Ok while they last, but you'll want to trade up before long.
.
Marui is the workhorse, decent performance, more focusing on quality and reliability.
CA/G&G etc are all about performance and appearance, sacrificing quality and longevity.
There is nothing wrong with buying a UTG warhawk, if that is what you can afford. It may not last, but you'll have fun with it while it does. If you can afford much more than that, get a Marui. I've not been here long, but I've seen more than enough posts about getting a cyma or utg, then asking what 100 dollar pistol to buy. Look at what you can spend, and how often you'll play. It may not be worth it to get a Marui if you play less than once a month, or only a few times each summer, but for those of us who play 2 or more times a month, a marui can be well worth the investment.
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What about STAR's models? do they have any reliablity/longevity problems? I've noticed that they always are on the higher end of the pricing spectrum. (I'm really only asking because they aren't mentioned very often. I've got two Marui aegs ((A SIG 552 and MP7)) and have yet to run across a problem)
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star as a guide likens to g&g, the external quality is really really nice, but internally its hit or miss. The hop units aren't the best and the barrels plain suck. My l85 had a seriously bent barrel when i received it from the factory. After replacing that it was great. But others like the sl9 have had mulitple issues such as not firing right out of the box.
Just to provide perspective for Sleeper's comments:
He's coming from a group where we don't even *have* AEG's. (His UTG MP5 is the first one, and to keep things fair for the other players I can't even let him use it on full auto.)
Imagine this scenario: Everyone has springers, and the top rifles shoot 260-270 FPS. There is a sniper that manages 315. Half to 2/3 of the group don't have their own guns, and borrow the pistols and rifles not being used at the time. Game frequency is every 3 weeks at best (although this weekend may be a rare exception). And the real shocker: We've been playing in my backyard this way for 3 years!
That's where he's coming from.
(You probably think of us as a group of starters.)
Having said all that, we're moving to a field, and the comments have been appropriate in context. His just seemed so out of place because his starting point is so different, and I wanted to provide the necessary context to understand him.
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-Positively Evil: Evil for Good!
Hey! My first gun was a Super 9! But I was only playing with springers, so it was great compared to everyone else's gun. It also lasted me 2 years and only began acting funny in its last 2 months. But I <3 my TM M16A2 so much!
"Sunprojects" - anyone with info on quality of this company's products?
Dentrinity advertises them. Quite expensive, not sure on quality though.
The M203? They used to make gas rifles, but Den doesn't sell them, at least I can't find them on their site. If you're talking about the Den customs, those are just TM M-series guns with the SP M203 on them. I can't speak on the quality of the M203 personally, but if the design was as good as their M-series guns, I'd say go for it.
All right, I follow you. And yes it looks like the SP M203 is customized with a TM, although the series I am uncertain of.
Is ABS a plastic composite?
Change in questions though.
"Grenade Launcher" -- is it more like an 8 to 12 pellet shower or does it pump out the full round capacity at once? The information seems to be very vague.
The company "Sun Projects" does make grenade launchers (M203's), but he's probably talking about their expensive M16's or M4's. Those guns aren't AEG's. They're gas operated rifles which require an external power source (such as a paintball tank or compressed air tank) to operate. So in essence they work just like classic airsoft guns.
As far as the grenade launchers OpFor, most of them use 40mm grenades. The gas powered grenades can shoot from around 16 up to 208 BB's in one shot. Some grenades can even shoot paintballs, baby powder to create a small smoke screen, or even nerf rockets. You only get 1 shot from the grenade and then you have to reload it with gas and BB's to use it again.
To confuse things more, TM makes a grenade launcher that isn't really a grenade launcher (although it looks like one), but it operates like a shotgun which for every pump it shoots 3 BB's at once (and uses the same mechanism as a TM shotgun, including the shells I think).
The company "Sun Projects" does make grenade launchers (M203's), but he's probably talking about their expensive M16's or M4's. Those guns aren't AEG's. They're gas operated rifles which require an external power source (such as a paintball tank or compressed air tank) to operate. So in essence they work just like classic airsoft guns.
This was what I thought he was talking about first as well, but I checked the Den website and all they had was the M203 and a few custom TMs with the SP M203 on them.
It really depends on how much and how hard you use it. Frequent or hard use will shorten its life considerably. Take care of it, and it might last you a little while. Its performance will always leave something to be desired though.
Definitely go with a TM for your first gun. As a heads up those Super 9s really, really suck! A friend of mine bought one, needless to say it sucked. He ended up smashing it against a tree because he was so dissapointed with it and no I'm not joking.
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Just because an ad says something dosen't mean it's true. And it will only shoot 380 FPS with .12g BBs (which shouldn't be used at that velocity because they can break in the barrel of your gun and ruin it)
With .12g BBs maybe. .20g BB's are what most good airsoft guns shoot. 380fps with .12g BBs is the same as 295fps with .20g BBs. All the FPS in the world wouldn't help that gun anyway. It would still be really inaccurate.
That didn't matter for me. The hop up was dumb; it made my bbs curve up after about 40ft. and I was using .20g. And it was fixed too so there was no adjusting it.
Just because an ad says something dosen't mean it's true. And it will only shoot 380 FPS with .12g BBs (which shouldn't be used at that velocity because they can break in the barrel of your gun and ruin it)
Super 9 V2.5
According to this they have updated it yet again so it does shoot 380FPS with a .2. (I've found Shorty's FPS listings to be accurate so far.) I noticed they didn't say it is any more accurate or sturdier, though. (My brother has one, you have to replace the bolt every so often. Not worth it in my opinion until they give it a longer lifespan.)
And I've heard only good things about Hotspot as well.
Edit: Hmm, since the bolt is replacable does that mean if my brother bought one of the new bolts he would technically have the new 2.5 version?
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-Positively Evil: Evil for Good!
Last edited by Wingman_Goober : 12-05-2006 at 07:06 AM.
Reason: Added a question.
Super 9 V2.5
According to this they have updated it yet again so it does shoot 380FPS with a .2. (I've found Shorty's FPS listings to be accurate so far.) I noticed they didn't say it is any more accurate or sturdier, though. (My brother has one, you have to replace the bolt every so often. Not worth it in my opinion until they give it a longer lifespan.)
And I've heard only good things about Hotspot as well.
Edit: Hmm, since the bolt is replacable does that mean if my brother bought one of the new bolts he would technically have the new 2.5 version?
I stand corrected. I guess it's kinda good that the manufacturers are trying to make a better product, but I still don't see the S9 becoming a mainstay at the field any time soon.
Yea same goes for me. Don't buy crossman. They should stick to what they're good at (or at least what they're supposed to be good at) and make bb guns.
It is universally regarded as the worst gun out there.
